RedPill - sATA-based boot

[asheenlevrai]

Hi @ThorGroup

 

cf. your GH:

"If you're running SATA-based boot you can skip vid and pid fields (just remove them)"

 

Does that mean the loader can be on a sATA drive rather than a USB dongle?

If yes, I guess the rest (99%) of the capacity of this drive would be lost/unusable, right?

 

Could the loader be on a RAID1 array in order to circumvent HW failure? ( I understand this would be a whole lot of waste if the capacity of the drives would bec useless).

 

Best,

-a-

[urundai]

Sata option is typically meant for VM install (proxmox or ESXI etc). It will be a lot of wasted disk if you want to boot like that on bare metal. Nothing else can be on that SATA disk.

 

Not sure if RAID of the boot disk is even worth it - you can just backup the image and start from a new USB drive or dis, if the current one fails. Actual data and synology system partition will already be part of your data disks (should be RAID, to sustain disk failures) and it will boot up with nothing lost with the new USB.

Edited November 5, 2021 by urundai

[asheenlevrai]

Thank you very much   @urundai

For the useful information 😊

[forests_gump]

is Sata boot only for VM install (proxmox or ESXI etc) ?

 

I would like to know if redpill support does sata boot (eg SATA DOM) on bare metal as well. Thanks

Edited December 4, 2021 by forests_gump

[urundai]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:12 AM, forests_gump said:

is Sata boot only for VM install (proxmox or ESXI etc) ?

 

I would like to know if redpill support does sata boot (eg SATA DOM) on bare metal as well. Thanks

I am not sure what specific use case is driving this need for bare metal. As I noted in my previous response, You will be allocating the entire disk only for use of the 1GB redpill image. Even then, TTG created this SATA boot option specifically for VM installations which can't be booted from USB. I also read there is some slim size hard coding (maybe less than 1G disk size?). 

 

It can be a great POC to see if it works or not, but I am failing understand the real need. Can you elaborate on the specific situation for this kind of a boot model for bare metal? 

[forests_gump]

SATA DOM's durability (slc/mlc & SoC design) & transfer speed is much better than USB flash drive (its tiny embedded controller die earlier) gives me a peace of mind.  Most common capacity varies from 1GB to 16GB while capacity is not-fully utilize, still seems acceptable to me.

 

There is a reason why SuperMicro & other server mb usually comes with SATA DOM /Server DOM connector (even though USB is available)

 

@urundai 

Edited December 7, 2021 by forests_gump

[pocopico]

I think there is a misunderstanting of the use of the device that is used to boot DSM. Even on real synology boxes, synology uses usb devices to boot. Its only on bigger NAS that you find SATA boot devices.

 

The USB disk is used only during the boot process for booting the kernel and after that the root disk is on the first partition of each configured hard disk. The second partition holds the DSM swap and the third one holds the user data. So in terms of speed, there is no actual limit due to use of a USB device.

Edited December 7, 2021 by pocopico

[IG-88]

5 hours ago, forests_gump said:

SATA DOM's durability (slc/mlc & SoC design)

beside what @pocopico wrote

sata dom's simply use better parts and are more expansive, resulting in a better lifespan (as designed)

 

5 hours ago, forests_gump said:

& transfer speed is much better than USB flash drive

that depends on the soc that is used and the flash chips, a better soc can handle more iops and even with the same flash will be better handling io loads

also here, as designed

 

5 hours ago, forests_gump said:

(its tiny embedded controller die earlier)

no, not really, its usually the cheap flash chips in usb thumb drives that die early, especially when the controller does not have the ability of wear leveling

 

5 hours ago, forests_gump said:

gives me a peace of mind.  Most common capacity varies from 1GB to 16GB while capacity is not-fully utilize, still seems acceptable to me.

as the usb loader is rarely written to (just on dsm updates) its no big deal to have lower grade hardware for booting and its also easy to replace - if you know how to deal with it you dont even need a backup of the usb thingy (i don't)

the following goes for jun's  loader but will be similar for redpil

its just the grub.cfg where you enter usb vid/pid, mac and maybe sn (easy to have a copy of it, the usb vid/pid part might be in need of change when changing the usb device) and  if you used a special exra.lzma (for drivers) you need to have that too and the often missed and not understood part is the kernel of the installed dsm version (zImage, rd.gz) that can be extracted from the *.pat file used for the last update, its not that difficult to reproduce the usb drive if needed from scratch

under normal circumstances the usb flash drives are mostly used for reading and thats no problem in case of reliability, i came across one ore two cases here where lifespan was a problem but that was across the brands and more likely a issue of psu or voltage/current of the board

i would be more concerned about the sata hdd's, cabling/backplane, psu and controller - read here a little and there are so much more cases about hdd's then usb flsh drive reliability

also a not working boot stick does not have any effect on your stored data, you could even boot with open media vault and get insant access to you files over network (if you prepare a bootable media with it), its also possible to boot up a live/recovery linux and mount the data volume manually (-> howto section, that way you can also find out what dsm version was installed, just in case you lost track and need to recreate a broken usb)

 

5 hours ago, forests_gump said:

There is a reason why SuperMicro & other server mb usually comes with SATA DOM /Server DOM connector (even though USB is available)

the reasons might be more like compatibility (sata boot for a running system instead of usb for just installing), speed (sata = 6G for a long time reliable), i guess you could also have slc usb drives if you want to (and be willing to order 10k+) and have more reliable usb flash drives

 

the usb boot is just a tiny part of the system and not just by importance for the stored data also to the amount of data, just 30-40MB that is read from usb, the dsm sytem is stored in the 1st partion(s) of the disks, more or less the boot kernle, some drivers/config files and the original dsm kernel, thats it

even if you speed up the usb part by 10 times its pointless compared with what you can gain when "forcing" ssd speed on the dsm system partition (in the end only one partition of the raid1 is used when starting the system and when its ssd the you might see some gain in boot speed

 

[forests_gump]

It is always very heartening to receive sincere comments at over here, these are the few very genuine in helping, engaging in a dialog even knowing you are giving more than receiving.

 

I am referring especially to people such as IG-88, ThorGroup, even urundai & several others.

 

On the matter about trusting USB boot device for xpen/redpill --- i am abit OCD (it is true i do read the specifics how little write goes into usb-boot & how unlikely it will fail). my OCD was trigger when i received a write-failure msg from my loader on ancient USB drive (that comes with a write-protect switch, accidently put into protected-mode).

 

IG-88, I found you always share at great length & depth, with your experience sincerely addressing each point with clarity, even trying out things to benefit others! Earlier on I was searching for sata card,  if not for you -- I would have bought those "popular" Marvell based card. I gotten JMB585 instead after reading your recommendation, the experience was simply wonderful! Thank you all!

Edited December 8, 2021 by forests_gump

[leopold]

On 12/7/2021 at 2:12 AM, urundai said:

I am not sure what specific use case is driving this need for bare metal.

I've got one:  I picked up an old Datto four drive chassis into which I'm going to put a mini-ITX board.  Said board doesn't have an internal USB port (not that it could be easily accessed anyway) and I'd rather not have the USB key sticking out of the chassis as it's easier to knock/break.  Also, the OCD part of me doesn't find it aesthetically pleasing.

[pocopico]

9 hours ago, leopold said:

I've got one:  I picked up an old Datto four drive chassis into which I'm going to put a mini-ITX board.  Said board doesn't have an internal USB port (not that it could be easily accessed anyway) and I'd rather not have the USB key sticking out of the chassis as it's easier to knock/break.  Also, the OCD part of me doesn't find it aesthetically pleasing.

 

Most boards have internal pin headers to connect to front case usb ports. You can use the USB pin header and use these pins to connect your USB stick and place it somewhere inside the chassis. Still i think that USB is a better option and closer to what syno is doing.

[phone guy]

On 12/8/2021 at 8:06 AM, forests_gump said:

It is always very heartening to receive sincere comments at over here, these are the few very genuine in helping, engaging in a dialog even knowing you are giving more than receiving.

 

I am referring especially to people such as IG-88, ThorGroup, even urundai & several others.

 

On the matter about trusting USB boot device for xpen/redpill --- i am abit OCD (it is true i do read the specifics how little write goes into usb-boot & how unlikely it will fail). my OCD was trigger when i received a write-failure msg from my loader on ancient USB drive (that comes with a write-protect switch, accidently put into protected-mode).

 

IG-88, I found you always share at great length & depth, with your experience sincerely addressing each point with clarity, even trying out things to benefit others! Earlier on I was searching for sata card,  if not for you -- I would have bought those "popular" Marvell based card. I gotten JMB585 instead after reading your recommendation, the experience was simply wonderful! Thank you all!

I couldnt have said it any better! A few people here really try to help the best they can @IG-88@pocopico@Peter Suh and many others I cant remember at 3am. I learned a lot by reading thru older posts myself. Not sure many do. The more detailed an explanation the first time an answer is given, the easier it is for everyone to understand in the present and in the future when they search for that answer later on. I have read some of the german threads ig88 contributed too (translated as I understand only english) and gained valuable information there too! (hint: search)

 

USB vs SATA: The usb loader literally boots the system in seconds, and most have incredible up times... speed is a null factor imo...I personally see zero benefit to booting from a sata device on baremetal, sata dom or not. For those who dont want a usb loader hanging out the back, look up SanDisk Cruzer Fit. Super cheap, 16gb and tiny. Pocopico listed the perfect solution for those who find it cosmetically unpleasant to use an external usb, amazon sells a usb header to internal usb a socket... boom! All the prosumer nas I have opened all boot from usb so a custom built one booting from usb makes 100% sense to me.  I think maybe some people are confusion this project with other nas solutions like unraid and truenas?

Edited April 19, 2022 by phone guy

[leopold]

On 4/19/2022 at 8:51 AM, pocopico said:

 

Most boards have internal pin headers to connect to front case usb ports. You can use the USB pin header and use these pins to connect your USB stick and place it somewhere inside the chassis. Still i think that USB is a better option and closer to what syno is doing.

I did this in the end - works pretty nicely as it happens!